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***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE GREAT DOUBLE STANDARD??? » 4/08/2015 10:58 pm

Tru 2 Da Game wrote:

marcelnorcalsab wrote:

Ish, why the double standard....can we say greed or worse maybe he just didn't give a shytt about the breed. I mean why use a Lab of all things. At least JEL used a black APBT. None of this is good for the breed. It doesn't matter how many people have the line, but putting this old tymer in the breed as some Saint of pureity is a laughable joke. He is the same as all of those today adding to the gumbo pot. None of these Bulldogs of the past are pure maybe everything will be OK once we all accept the truth. The difference is what are we doing today to establish a line with out using an outside breed. Its time to change from the past. There is no reason to recreate new aspects to this breed. We don't need new colors or more exageration. We just need to build better bulldogs using you guessed it actual bulldogs.

whats laughable is a dog trainer trying to give reason why something was done wayy before his first dog.. you train dogs you have very little knowledge about anything concerning Mr. Ellerbe.. can you show anyone using these dogs today????
 

T2, Yes Ellerbe Bulldogs with a hint of Lab is before my time. I didn't get my first bulldog until 1994. So, I have what just over 20 years in Bulldogs and I have done 12 breedings.

In all 20 years I have never used an outside line for my Bulldog program, nor do I see a reason to. I have produced bulldogs titled in Schutzhund. French Ring, PSA, Mondio Ring, Agility, Competitive obedience, Rally, Lure Coursing, Weight Pull, Irondog, SDA, Dock Diving, ATTS, CGC and conformation Champions and Grand Champions. As well as dogs who have one best in show, all breed best in show, hardest hitting, protection tournaments. Now I don't know Ellerbe and you may not like my line, but I'll put my accomplishments up against Ellerbe's any day. This dog trainer was also a breeder.

So how many actual years was Ellerbe in this breed? Now he may have never done much but breed a bulld

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE GREAT DOUBLE STANDARD??? » 4/08/2015 4:13 pm

Ish, why the double standard....can we say greed or worse maybe he just didn't give a shytt about the breed. I mean why use a Lab of all things. At least JEL used a black APBT. None of this is good for the breed. It doesn't matter how many people have the line, but putting this old tymer in the breed as some Saint of pureity is a laughable joke. He is the same as all of those today adding to the gumbo pot. None of these Bulldogs of the past are pure maybe everything will be OK once we all accept the truth. The difference is what are we doing today to establish a line with out using an outside breed. Its time to change from the past. There is no reason to recreate new aspects to this breed. We don't need new colors or more exageration. We just need to build better bulldogs using you guessed it actual bulldogs.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » John D Johnson with Black and White American Bulldog » 4/03/2015 11:46 am

I have a question if you are breeding tight on blood you know was crossed to get the black. Blue, green, pink, purple or whatever the new popular...err....sorry let me be more politically correct....rare color. I would never want to offend the color promoting puppy salesman of their rare mutts. Back to the question.

How is breeding tight on dogs you know to be mixed to create a color an ethical breeding practice? How does this differ much from todays breeder crossing breeds in today for color, size or exaggeration that we call out for an ethical breeding practice?

I am confused because to me we should breed away from a past breeders disshonesty and not breeding for the dishonesty (ie. color, muzzle length, muscle, size). It goes back to the classic line, does to wrongs make a right.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » Another congrats to Hard Charger's Laz and Krunch » 3/02/2015 3:48 pm

Congrats first goes out to Laz and Krunch!

Congrats as well to EWK!

Chris it looks like Kraig and Laz are taking over the West Coast working Bulldogs. I know I haven't done shytt but a PSA1 last year and train others dogs to title. Its time us breeders get back at it and prove it to these new working bulldogers we can still do it, lol.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » TRUST BUT DONT LIVE BY A PEDIGREE... » 2/28/2015 8:57 am

me wrote:

so you would use what you considered a good dog regardless of pedigree ? over a dog , with a pedigree you knew and liked ,  that didn't exhibit what you were looking for ? you think pet dogs should only  come from working dog program washouts and the pound ?

Me I wouldn't breed any dog unless it was a dog that after I tested it multiple times possessed the drives and genetic traits I desire in my program. As well as having a pedigree I can use and match up to produce quality dogs.

IMO you need both a quality tested dog and the pedigree to base what you are seeing it by. There should never be short cuts taken when it comes to breeding and that is only the mating part, the raising of puppies is another chapter in itself.

I think the first place a prospective pet dog person should be informed of is a shelter. If the person at this point is still interested in a puppy/dog from a breeder then it is so. I think breeders should promote shelters as an alternative to a breeder. Now this doesn't mean the prospective pet owner is going to go shelter over breeder. I also do not understand breeding just for pet quality dogs. What is the point anyone can do that. What seperates a breeder from the rest of mediocrity in breeding if pet quality is the goal or is mediocrity the goal in breeding when pet quality is the goal?

A pet quality dog can be a working washout, a shelter dog or from anbarray of other places. I am very much a realist. I know and understand there will always be breeders in this and all breeds that have a single goal of producing pet quality dogs with a look they like. In all honesty I would say the majority of breeders are breeding for this purpose, but is only goals.Now they would be happy if a dog went further, but is this as a dole purpose best for a working breed?

I believe, ME, you have a DDB program. Now I assume you see your program as cutting edge or at least in the top 10% of programs. Now if this is the case and I am assumin

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » TRUST BUT DONT LIVE BY A PEDIGREE... » 2/27/2015 12:00 pm

Uncle Ish wrote:

Why are you more focused with the herders??? You prefer them has more natural working dogs???

Lol, no Ish I am and have always been a bulldoger. One problem with that is I own a business specializing in police canines. We train everything from apprehension, narcotics detection, bomb detection to dogs for swat. As well as sell dogs to departments. So my shift in dogs is predicated upon this. Not to mention I am a big mondio ring fan as well as a training director for a PSA club. All of which is more Malinois based.

So currently my Bulldog program is on hold and I hope not a permanent hold. I love my bulldogs and especially the Norcals Bulldogs program. I started Norcals when I was 20 and I am happy with what it has become. I think Norcals has produced many quality dogs and has exhibited excellent consistency for the breed.

My Blue Line Canine program is mostly Malinois with the ocassional Dutch. It is strictly geared to police work so the dogs I bring alter slightly from a sport dog program. I haven't done an breeding for the program it has been all dogs ranging from 10 to 28 months. I am picking up a couple dogs from the Netherlands next month for dual purpose (bite and detection) that will also work SWAT. So as you can see my Blue Line Canine program is much different then the Norcals program. The other big difference in programs is Norcals is all passion while Blue Line is a business.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » TRUST BUT DONT LIVE BY A PEDIGREE... » 2/26/2015 12:30 pm

me wrote:

if you had the emmy dog , and knew everything about her you do , except her pedigree ...... and you knew everything you  know about her sister  , includung her pedigree, would you still use the emmy dog  over her sister ?

I wouldn't have used the sister in my program. I didn't see the working ability in her to go anywhere. She was a good looking dog that would have been easy to champion out, she had good size and height (73-75lbs.), she had a great pet temperament as she was very social, environmentally confident, smart and athletic, but she lacked the necessary prey and bite drive I require within my breeding program.

Understand that doesnt mean she had no drive. She worked and bit the sleeve and suit, but not to the level I require. I want dogs in my program that live to work.

Now could she have produced more to her pedigree that kept her desirable traits and had the higher end drive levels I require, there is a good chance of it, but no reason to breed just to breed. Breeding is a passion of mine and when the passion is not there in the breeding, I don't breed. I haven't done a litter in almost 3 years and I own a bitch who is the only female ever in this breed to have 2 sport protection title and she is the only female to reach mondio ring1. She is also a grand champion, titled in lure coursing, agility. Rally, 2 legs of a UCD, dock diving, OFA good, Penn Hip .36/.36 and I am leaving stuff out. She has also produced sport titled and champion dogs, but my passion has not been there so she has not been breed in years.

There are plenty of breeders producing litter that never achieve SHYTT! I myself will never understand why these people breed. If you want a pet go to the shelter, I breed for purpose and purpose only. It is very rare for me to produce a litter that at least one dog hasn't achieved at least something. I can't even recall the last time I had a litter like that. I breed dogs that I feel with the right handling and training c

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » TRUST BUT DONT LIVE BY A PEDIGREE... » 2/25/2015 12:06 pm

Uncle Ish wrote:

marcelnorcalsab wrote:

Breeding is not an exact process. You can educate yourself with all the articles you can find on the subject, but this alone will not make you a great breeder.

An excellent pedigree, proven quality dogs, an education on breeding and the breed itself is a great place to start. Now having a great start does not take into account some lines and dogs blend well together and others do not. Failures and sucesses will come with breeding. Your goal as a quality breeder should first be quality consistency.

An objective eye is just as important as the qualities above if not more so to get you from a prospective quality breeding and a proven quality breeding. This objective outlook with best aid you in recognizing the weaknesses and strengths in your breedings, so that improvement can be made without losing the quality traits as well.

Marcel you have a proven line of bulldogs... do you still evaluate each animal regardless of pedigrees???
 

Ish, I could and have never breed a bitch I haven't first tested. Many of the Norcals girls have been tested and  titled. I have breed to un-titled females of mine, but they where first pushed and tested hard many times, before thinking of breeding.

Today I only have 2 bulldog females as my Malinois are my main focus. One is Luna who is titled in an array of sports and is a highly tested dog. My other Emmy is semi young and is mostly handled by my 9 yearold son.

I have put Emmy through the ringer. I have many times thought about trailing her and I may in the future when I have time I can put into my bulldogs. She is a house dog, but also a very nice athletic girl, good prey drive, high ball drive, who is social with a working edge. She has a phenomenal pedigree in my opinion. Her obedience and bite work is BST ready with a week or two of trial prep in my opinion if I was handling her, but needs work with my son handling. Though he is picking it up well.

Emmy is also OFA good a

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » TRUST BUT DONT LIVE BY A PEDIGREE... » 2/23/2015 11:44 am

Breeding is not an exact process. You can educate yourself with all the articles you can find on the subject, but this alone will not make you a great breeder.

An excellent pedigree, proven quality dogs, an education on breeding and the breed itself is a great place to start. Now having a great start does not take into account some lines and dogs blend well together and others do not. Failures and sucesses will come with breeding. Your goal as a quality breeder should first be quality consistency.

An objective eye is just as important as the qualities above if not more so to get you from a prospective quality breeding and a proven quality breeding. This objective outlook with best aid you in recognizing the weaknesses and strengths in your breedings, so that improvement can be made without losing the quality traits as well.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE PERFORMANCE BULLY... » 2/17/2015 11:38 pm

I see the title, "Performance Bully" but where is the performance side. Performance to me is to perform, not just a more hybrid look. Breeding for just a look is what put the bully line where it is today.

I know there are a few like Sonia and Jennifer working this more performance bully type. I would like to see what others are doing with them. Just breeding to a mid west performance dog or a working hybrid type doesn't give an instant fix to generations of a working breed with no emphasis on working. You must test performance and find the best bully performance bulldogs from this type for this type to grow.

To those of you out there testing your dogs working ability. Some dogs may make it and some will fail to make the cut, but without failure you will never truly find success in this breed.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » Updated about my Jesse James X Flame litter » 2/07/2015 7:59 pm

They are looking good. I look forward to see what this litter achieves as time goes on.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE PERFORMANCE BULLY... » 2/04/2015 12:58 pm

I have done some half brother to half sister breedings and father to grand daughter stuff over the years. Most my own breedings and a few times when I have studed out my boys.

Trouble x Tory (Trouble grand daughter). This produced 16 pups. My all time favorite working male Malo came from this.

Malo (Trouble son) x Missde (Trouble daughter). This produced I believe 14 pups.

Malo (Trouble son) x Stella (Trouble son). Thi wasn't my breeding but I think it produced 10 pups.

Riley (Malo son) x Luna (malo daughter). This produced 9 pups.

Malo has also been breed a few times to heavy Mikie stuff. Mikie is a 3/4 brother to Malo's father Trouble. These breedings average 8 or 9 pups.

Of all my breedings either studding out Trouble or Malo over the years or my own breedings. All have been over 7 pups with the exception of these.

Malo x Bumpkin (Mikey on one side with Dailey stuff mixed in). This produced only 1 pup, but she did get a Sch1, BST and champion. Bumpkin has always had small litters which is not common from the Mikey pure original style Boyds bitches.

Malo x Chyna (Mikey line crossed with Dailey). This produced 4 pups.

Malo x Shasta (Martin line). This produced 6 pups. Shasta was 9 or 10 at the time. She was bred to Malo's father in her prime and this produced 12 pups.

I think through experience the Bully lines tend to produce much smaller litters based on the heavy English Bulldog coming from the Olde hung pedigrees or bulldogs that are heavy on West Champs High Hope (English Bulldog JDJ added). This is another reason to adding quality performance or hybrid outcross to the bullies. Th more pit influenced bulldog type tends to throw larger litters.

I think I have had some of the bigger litters over the years. 2 separate litters with 16 pups and twice with 14. I have also breed all of males naturally. If a dog cant breed on its own i have no need in it. Genetically I think my line is as fertile as any.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE PERFORMANCE BULLY... » 2/01/2015 10:31 pm

I actually believe adding an outcross of a working line Perforance bulldog or a working line hybrid bulldog to a Bully program is years past due. Though if you read the above statement I emphasize the word Working as not all performance or hybrids are proven working lines.

I would look closely at lines and more specifically dogs that have proven to produce and are working dogs themselves. So avoid the young hot worker and look at the proven old past worker. A dog that shows longevity I would say as a stud a dog over 10 years. One with working titles is a plus, but proven the ability to produce working dogs INA minimum of at least 3 different breedings. Look at the breedings the stud had produced best with and analyze why this combination thrived. All to often people fall for some young stud based off of looks and a limited amount of proven work with some pretty pups and then he is labeled as proven which is far far far from reality. Another idea is adding a female pup from a line with a stud and bitch that fits all of the above.

Adding proven working type to the failing genetic makeup of today's bully type can do nothing but help and improve the bully line in time. Intelligent breeders will prosper when making intelligent choices many times done outside the conventional box. Precieved hype changes with the seasons but proven ability stands the test of time.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » STUD WORSHIP: MEGABULLS 50 » 12/25/2014 3:19 am

It looks like the English bulldig during the earlier period of a more extreme bulldog look. I guess you could say the early train wreck period. The American Bulldog is in this period today for the most part. Breeders could care less about the overall health of the breed and you can see it in what they are breeding for. 50 is a prime example and just look at how many breed to him.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » Fass challenge..... » 12/24/2014 5:17 pm

Fass is just another turn cosmetically this breed took to appear more Older then Bulldog. He is a good looking dog for what he appears to be. A Bulldog and Olde cross.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » STUD WORSHIP: MEGABULLS 50 » 12/24/2014 5:11 pm

Good looking for an Olde, not much bulldog there.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » WHAT HAS THE DOG GAME TAUGHT YOU??? » 11/05/2014 12:14 pm

What I have learned......hmmmm....

The first thing is have fun. The good times at shows and clubs interacting with friends is the memories you most cherish. It's not the titles and accomplishments.

That most people in this breed do not know shytt even on a basic level about bulldogs or dogs in general.

That with dogs you meet some Fing crazy people.

The internet and message boards is a tool you can learn from, but most prefer to use it to act like intellectually challenged disadvantaged midgets with keyboards.

A good dog should be based by the dog in front of you to see and watch that is quality, but when you experience level for an eye test is based on a couple of your own dogs and a breeder or two that eye may be about as good as Stevie Wonders.

Go out and Fing DO Something with your dogs before you stamp it as great. A puppy doesn't mean shytt it has done NOTHInG but breathe eat and shytt.

I guess that is it for now.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE NEW IT DOGS... » 10/31/2014 2:11 pm

me wrote:

it would be laughable if i actually thought animal aggression and human aggression were the same  things ??????? i'm not sure if that info  was for my benefit or not ???i think it was ??? if it was , i assure you , you grossly underestimate my dog experiences........ i think the word "bulldog" historically  more closely equated to animal aggression , and really  never had a thing to do with human aggression ..........i know exactley what my dogues are about , noone , and i mean nonone , could tell me a single thing about them temperamentally , or physically . my dogs  could  go home with anyone , they'd more than likely kill their dog though , or at least give it a shot .i don't "brag up my dogs" , one thing i assure you , they are  large physicllay sound , strong , animal aggressive , and healthy  dogs , with really good wind ..... not unhealthy  , fat , sloppy , drooling , driveless slugs , as vito portrays them ...... and as i said before , i'm sure i've had dogues that'd kill anything ever came off his yard  ..... i live in a city that i'm sure traditionally ranks in the top 10 as far as violent  crime in the united states , i don't think our police department  get 3 real dog bites in a year . you can correct me if i'm wrong , cleveland , ohio...... i'm not saying protection training /titles are bad . or a worthless criteria , i just don't buy into the , it defines a bulldog theory .......... i think it demonstrates intelligence , drives  and trainability ..... just not a test of real time tenacity , unless your hurting them in training  it's pretend tenacity , it has absolutely nothing to do with health , and little to do with tractability as a pet , which most of them are ...............i got to think the dogs they have guarding the white house are from reputable trainers/judges/handlers  .... the dutch sheperd MAY be for real , no telling ..........

Me, your right I do not know your level of knowledge pertaining to canine beha

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE NEW IT DOGS... » 10/31/2014 8:56 am

me wrote:

Uncle Ish wrote:

me wrote:

at what point in time did protection sport training , or titles become the standard for defining what is a "bulldog" ??????

 
That is a interesting question worthy of its own topic...

the two secret service protection trained dogs , that were sent after  the most recent white house fence jumper , mirrors  what my thoughts on protection trained dogs has always been ....... you can't train tenacious , you can train for the appearance of tenacity . the malinois was obviously a missed guess ........ the dutch sheperd did better , but he appeared to be on a leash the whole time , and really didn't take enough abuse in this real situation to judge much of anything  ....... i have had ddb i know firsthand if they got another dog , you could not physically beat them off it ......

This is laughable. I have trained police k9 units for several years. The secret service dogs are trained yes, but really do you think dogs for the secret service get real bite. Other then training. This isn't like dogs in a city with a high crime rate that are really working daily. I have 3 real bites done by dogs I train I can think of in the past 10 days. All these dogs are used regularly. One of these bites is by a Malinois I thought may need to be washed out when I took over. he has come out of it and his last 3 real bites the suspect has averaged 3days in the hospital. So basically the dog has turned it around.

I have worked a half dozen DDB over the years. Nothing I would ever brag about, more so the opposite. A dog may be tough biting a dog, but animal aggression has little to no bearing on a working man dog. I often hear you brag up your dogs, so how about this I travel a bit for training stuff, why not come out to a show and so will I. Lets work your best raw untrained dog. Allow me to bring it to your best dog. You bring the dog out with no leash at heal and I bet you a Ben Franklin I run your dog. A basic example of fight

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THE NEW IT DOGS... » 10/27/2014 9:19 am

For the past year I have read on Nation X countless times about how we need to have bully dogs that work. Minus 1 dog listed so far have any of these dogs done anything working wise.

I nominate Sonia's dog Jesse James IPO1. He may have a bully hybrid pedigree and he doesn't look like an Olde, but that is what a Bully dog needs to be. One that looks good and can back up the name Bulldog as he works as well.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » More IPO titles! » 10/27/2014 9:15 am

Congrats Sonia!!!

Your doing an awesome job with both Jesse and Flame. By the way it looks like Flames sister may be trailing for brevet soon.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THIS TIME NEXT YEAR WHERE WILL YOUR YARD BE??? » 10/11/2014 10:31 am

Ranovr32 wrote:

Uncle Ish wrote:

marcelnorcalsab wrote:

I think my yard may be almost all Malinois in a year. The bulldogs are getting less and less these days.

 
The bulldogs are getting less what Marcel??? You intrigued me here...

Well if he ever gets tired of Enzo I am sure I could make room for him lol. I don't think that the bulldogs are getting less and less. People are just producing more and more, but not OF quality.
 

What I meant by the bulldogs getting less and less was the amount of bulldogs I currently own. I haven't done a bulldog breeding in over 2 years. This is not because of a lack of good females either I just am not sure if I have that passion for it I once had. At my house right now there are only 3 bulldogs. I have Luna who is a grand champion, the only female bulldog ever to title to a 1 in 2 protection sports and a bunch of other titles. I should really breed her one last time. She is also the mother to Craig's dog Enzo. I have my favorite bulldog ever Malo who will be 12 next month. He has his titles to and has been one of the best producing bulldogs for sport. I also have Emmy who is Enzo's sister who has dome training in her, but she is my 8 year old sons dog. He has competed with her in dock diving and last week I gave him the OK that he is now old enough to train with her for sport and he choose PSA. So hopefully if he keeps the interest she can have a PDC soon, but he has to do it not me.

So I have 2 females at the house one a proven producer and the other a up and comer with a awesome pedigree and brothers and sisters that are proven ''workers , plus I co own a few, but for me breeding is about that passion. So we will see. I can say I know where I will go with both of them and good luck to anyone out producing what I put together for protection sports if that real passion comes back. As it is now I am more a free breeding consultant to anyone that has questions, lol.

My current future competition dog is a

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » THIS TIME NEXT YEAR WHERE WILL YOUR YARD BE??? » 10/06/2014 11:48 pm

I think my yard may be almost all Malinois in a year. The bulldogs are getting less and less these days.

***AM BULLDOG DISCUSSION*** » GOAL REACHED !!! » 10/06/2014 11:46 pm

Awesome Congrats Sonia. Keep kicking ass proving your dogs while other Bulldogers brag about dogs that have done nothing or little to nothing.

BTW welcome to a small club of bulldogers that have titled a bulldog in a true protection sport. Best of luck with the future.

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