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12/30/2013 11:19 pm #201


Re: 7/8 rule why not

you empty brains trying to better the breed? 7/8 or create a new one? are you planing to call it a ab? i don't think so


http://i44.tinypic.com/20uo08x.jpg
muscle tone, bone structure,plenty drive interaction.
A truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent. ~William Blake
 

12/31/2013 5:36 am #202


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Interesting thread...let's see what we got... 1) game apbt.  2) ROM dog, a proven producing game apbt.  3) Bournias' Brock (1/4 game apbt), or something like him.  4) Working German boxer.  4) Malinois, but just for Marcel, so that won't count. Then, Vito list about every standard performance line there is, and it occurs to me that all the attributes found in the breeds mentioned for crossbreeding can already be found under this huge very diverse umbrella we call the American Bulldog. So, my conclusion is the 7/8th rule isn't a necessity, but rather an option that some breeders would like to have available for their own personal use/experimentation... - Jim             

 

12/31/2013 10:15 am #203


Re: 7/8 rule why not

BART wrote:

you empty brains trying to better the breed? 7/8 or create a new one? are you planing to call it a ab? i don't think so

Yes, my very empty brain will do this..and yes..I will call them American Bulldogs. You are more than welcome to call them whatever your very full brain desires, and we will both be merry
 


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 10:19 am #204


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

Interesting thread...let's see what we got... 1) game apbt.  2) ROM dog, a proven producing game apbt.  3) Bournias' Brock (1/4 game apbt), or something like him.  4) Working German boxer.  4) Malinois, but just for Marcel, so that won't count. Then, Vito list about every standard performance line there is, and it occurs to me that all the attributes found in the breeds mentioned for crossbreeding can already be found under this huge very diverse umbrella we call the American Bulldog. So, my conclusion is the 7/8th rule isn't a necessity, but rather an option that some breeders would like to have available for their own personal use/experimentation... - Jim             

I think that's a fair assessment..and, in my opinion, a very obvious one (no disrespect intended). It's an option. For some, an excellent one, for others, not acceptable.. With dogs like Brock, I don't have to work through three generations, the very first will be 7/8th American Bulldog. To me, Brock IS an American Bulldog...so I guess that makes me happy...and boy do I like making me happy
 


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 10:24 am #205


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Gil wrote:

Sure you can add APBT to help structure, but what will that do the temperament?

I would like it if you were to elaborate on this. Pitbull temperament?? Are you aware of the tempermant issues within our breed? You think the Pitbull would add worse temperamental traits? how so?

 

Last edited by O'Sullivan (12/31/2013 10:25 am)


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 10:31 am #206


Re: 7/8 rule why not

The problem is that some people who have brought the outcrosses along, don't have the same standards or ideas that someone else might have.  So they might have used a cross that you might like, but the dogs they used wouldn't be the dogs you chose.  I think that is what makes a dog like Brock special.  He is an outcross, but the AB's used were top notch!!  To me that makes a very valuable tool!!


"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in and out of favour." ~Robert Frost
 

12/31/2013 10:52 am #207


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Everyone said, they would add some apbt...here's a litter advertised this summer as linebred Boss Hog, that I maintain is purely catchweight pit, aka OTSB - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1995799-belts-pups  Vito is planning on using Eric Rowe's dogs...Boss Hog, Painter, Koura, Kershner and a few unknowns, and I maintain these are also catchweight pits, aka AB. So, the apbt blood is available. I still think breeders want to take their shot at using apbt with their dogs, so it is.... theirs, and theirs alone, without losing the ability to register them, and have them acknowledged as ABs. - Jim 

 

12/31/2013 11:00 am #208


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

I still think.- Jim 

 
Agreed..lol..but that's all we can do. Motivations of others are surely not meant to be your concern. If it's done, and the proper steps are followed, it really doesn't matter what you, me, or anyone else thinks. I guess my point is this...do you care WHY people use the 7/8th rule? or do you care that people do? If you answered the latter, you would be best served discussing how to end it.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 11:03 am #209


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Does it really matter??  Which dogs do you think are more AB??  Eric's dogs, the dog Brock, or this ped you just posted??


"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in and out of favour." ~Robert Frost
 

12/31/2013 11:16 am #210


Re: 7/8 rule why not

At this stage of the game with the AB, I couldn't care less if the 7/8ths rule is used or not, which I don't think it will be, but I would hope people use it honestly and wisely...The last concern I'll have when I look for my next bulldog is if it's a "pure", papered, accepted by the registeries AB....less than meaningless to me. I'll be combing the country roads down south before I'd buy from some well known accepted "breeder".  Which dog's do I think are more AB?....I guess the one's that act more like bulldogs...- Jim

 

12/31/2013 11:17 am #211


Re: 7/8 rule why not

CCB wrote:

The problem is that some people who have brought the outcrosses along, don't have the same standards or ideas that someone else might have.  So they might have used a cross that you might like, but the dogs they used wouldn't be the dogs you chose.  I think that is what makes a dog like Brock special.  He is an outcross, but the AB's used were top notch!!  To me that makes a very valuable tool!!

 
This is an excellent point. There was someone in this discussion stating that they rely heavily on selection. I don't believe we have really touched on the subject much, but isn't that truly an enormous portion of what makes this breed what it is?

I don't believe in pedigrees, so much as I believe in selection. We hear so much about what is wrong with dogs, but how many people spend a significant amount of time discussing tangibly positive traits?

I know that, in my evolution, and my progressive education in canine phenotype and characteristic expression, that I am getting to a point where I am searching for traits I love and discussing them far more than the traits I don't.  This isn't to say that I am not aware of these negative traits, nor is it a proclaimation that I do not follow the standard set before me, but determining what it is we are looking for seems, at least to me, to be far more important than how tightly my dogs adhere to the pursuit of purity or identifiable bloodlines.

I wouldn't say that all breeders are looking to create a cross that is their "own". In my opinion this is due, largely, to what Troy has brought up. I want to know the dogs that I bring in. I want to ensure that the very best version of what I bring in is being used. I don't believe I can rely soley on myself, or on the experience of the breeders of the past. I think it best suits the use of the 7/8th rule to use dogs that can be proven today to carry the traits that embody the functional use, temperament and physical stature of the American Bulldog as it is seen by those who actually use these dogs in their true vocation.

Are there American Bulldogs out there that already do carry all of these things? Of course...otherwise I wouldn't choose this breed. The reality, for me, is that there is still an enormous benefit in using dogs that are similar in type and function.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 11:19 am #212


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

At this stage of the game with the AB, I couldn't care less if the 7/8ths rule is used or not, which I don't think it will be, but I would hope people use it honestly and wisely...The last concern I'll have when I look for my next bulldog is if it's a "pure", papered, accepted by the registeries AB....less than meaningless to me. I'll be combing the country roads down south before I'd buy from some well known accepted "breeder".  Which dog's do I think are more AB?....I guess the one's that act more like bulldogs...- Jim

I love it,Jim. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.
 


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell
 
 

12/31/2013 11:21 am #213


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Nice post, Joe.

 

12/31/2013 12:13 pm #214


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

Which dog's do I think are more AB?....I guess the one's that act more like bulldogs...- Jim

Agreed!!


 


"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in and out of favour." ~Robert Frost
 

12/31/2013 1:22 pm #215


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

Everyone said, they would add some apbt...here's a litter advertised this summer as linebred Boss Hog, that I maintain is purely catchweight pit, aka OTSB - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1995799-belts-pups  Vito is planning on using Eric Rowe's dogs...Boss Hog, Painter, Koura, Kershner and a few unknowns, and I maintain these are also catchweight pits, aka AB. So, the apbt blood is available. I still think breeders want to take their shot at using apbt with their dogs, so it is.... theirs, and theirs alone, without losing the ability to register them, and have them acknowledged as ABs. - Jim 

Catch Weight Pit, Pit Cur, Pit Mix, ..............What most descibes the foundation dogs on the Breed we call American Bulldog today.

What was pecker the Bruiser????? No real pedigree
What Was Mack the Masher ??? No Real Pedigree
same with every foundation dog of this breed...........and same is true of every Proven Great addition over the years.

Nations Dolley???No real pedigree

MaBell???? No Pedigree.

 Bama Boy???? No Pedigree

 Snow Bird/Flash????No Real Pedigree

What can be assumed with certainty White English, Souther Catch Dog, Hill Bulldog = Pit x ?


 Man of War ????No Real Pedigree

 Dogs bred solely on Function and performance is what made them great, not papers, not purity, not the show ring, real life performance.



where did it all go so very wrong.......John D set claimed to set out to preserve this breed of old time american catch dog with Alan Scott....Scott gave up after a few years, John D crossed in a bunch of Non working breeds to make them more Marketable to the common idiot puppy buyer. He took the Breed from this

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/pecker-the-bruiser.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/voodooambull/bh2007/websize/jdjgeorgiagal.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/mac-the-masher.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/sandman-the-great.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/scott-dixieman.jpg


to this

http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/johnd3.jpg

http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/johnd5.jpg

http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/jr2.jpg


so people think John D Johnson's bloodline is Pure??? and working American bulldogs that function at the working history of catch dog are not pure.....seems ass backwards to me what is a working breed that can no longer work at the task that created it????Pure garbage if you ask me
 


“In order to have an enemy, one must be somebody. One must be a force before he can be resisted by another force. A malicious enemy is better than a clumsy friend.”
 

12/31/2013 1:29 pm #216


Re: 7/8 rule why not

O'Sullivan wrote:

JGM-NC wrote:

Interesting thread...let's see what we got... 1) game apbt.  2) ROM dog, a proven producing game apbt.  3) Bournias' Brock (1/4 game apbt), or something like him.  4) Working German boxer.  4) Malinois, but just for Marcel, so that won't count. Then, Vito list about every standard performance line there is, and it occurs to me that all the attributes found in the breeds mentioned for crossbreeding can already be found under this huge very diverse umbrella we call the American Bulldog. So, my conclusion is the 7/8th rule isn't a necessity, but rather an option that some breeders would like to have available for their own personal use/experimentation... - Jim             

I think that's a fair assessment..and, in my opinion, a very obvious one (no disrespect intended). It's an option. For some, an excellent one, for others, not acceptable.. With dogs like Brock, I don't have to work through three generations, the very first will be 7/8th American Bulldog. To me, Brock IS an American Bulldog...so I guess that makes me happy...and boy do I like making me happy
 

very true Joe if you re not considering Brock as an ABs you shouldnt consider most of the ABs as ABs

 

12/31/2013 8:24 pm #217


Re: 7/8 rule why not

BHB wrote:

JGM-NC wrote:

Everyone said, they would add some apbt...here's a litter advertised this summer as linebred Boss Hog, that I maintain is purely catchweight pit, aka OTSB - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1995799-belts-pups  Vito is planning on using Eric Rowe's dogs...Boss Hog, Painter, Koura, Kershner and a few unknowns, and I maintain these are also catchweight pits, aka AB. So, the apbt blood is available. I still think breeders want to take their shot at using apbt with their dogs, so it is.... theirs, and theirs alone, without losing the ability to register them, and have them acknowledged as ABs. - Jim 

where did it all go so very wrong.......

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/pecker-the-bruiser.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/voodooambull/bh2007/websize/jdjgeorgiagal.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/mac-the-masher.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/sandman-the-great.jpg

http://siskaaa.free.fr/images/crzpd/scott-dixieman.jpg


to this
http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/johnd3.jpg

http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/johnd5.jpg

http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/jr2.jpg

 

 
  All went wrong when people wanted a "Bad AZz Dog", but when they thought what breeds are bad azz they were correct for the wrong reason so by the time we realized my bad azzz is not the same as yours it was to late. Then you get good ol 7/8. It'd be nice to know why it came about?


My closet is transparent, transparency is magnetic. 
 

12/31/2013 9:13 pm #218


Re: 7/8 rule why not

I think the only registry that allows the 7/8 rule is the NKC...why it was instituted in 2003, I'm not sure? However, they will register dogs that aren't even proven to be 7/8 or an AB at all, if an active NKC American Bulldog judge inspects the dog, and deems it an AB. If this fails you can take some pictures from the side and back and submit them to an AB board for verification. How a judge can tell an AB from numerous other bull breeds or crosses of breeds is beyond me??? - Jim 

 

1/01/2014 11:35 am #219


Re: 7/8 rule why not

no doubt there is pit outcross in this dogs pedigree several  generations back










SCH III,'2012 AWDF SCH II NAT' CH,CD2


http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/906815.jpg



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=906815-old-glorys-awful-pain




here is his dad Dorsey dog down off Boss Hog and just some southern catch dogs with not the deepest pedigree.

ROM Dorsey's Major Pain 
ROM,SCH BH, PSA PDC, WST,CD III


http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/848835.jpg


here is a Dorsey's Hitman ...he is a tri colored dog, definately a pit/amstaff color pattern.
http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/973423.jpg


Dorsey are dogs pulled out of the woods with very shallow pedigrees, but they are bred on their ability period and look at the results of Major Pain and his off spring, they are the exemplary  embodiment of the wrintten history of the breed.

no doubt in my mind this is how the breed was perpetuated over the last few thousand years of history of working bulldog.......

Bulldog was difined by the working as catch dog or gladiator, the function of aiding men at real life work, that is what made them pure, not a look or freakish cosmetic feature


now compair the gene pool we all have been working with, Olde, English, St Bernard, these dogs could not handle any kind of work the breed was created for, they have turned into a sad joke a charactature, a novelty 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2352338843235&set=vb.1093072723&type=2&theater



so who has the pure American bulldog?

Last edited by BHB (1/01/2014 11:39 am)


“In order to have an enemy, one must be somebody. One must be a force before he can be resisted by another force. A malicious enemy is better than a clumsy friend.”
 

1/01/2014 12:25 pm #220


Re: 7/8 rule why not

O'Sullivan wrote:

Gil wrote:

Sure you can add APBT to help structure, but what will that do the temperament?

I would like it if you were to elaborate on this. Pitbull temperament?? Are you aware of the tempermant issues within our breed? You think the Pitbull would add worse temperamental traits? how so?

 

 
IMO... ABs are more forgiving when it comes to their owners and children, they are more of a family protecter... where the pit is more of a game dog.  The pit has a shorter fuse and tends to get on the offensive quickly.  Now I know either breed can be breed on temperament and mess with natural instinct but in general that's what I think.


"We will pursue perfection and never achieve it, but along the way we may shake hands with excellence" Vince Lombardi
 

1/01/2014 2:03 pm #221


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Gil wrote:

O'Sullivan wrote:

Gil wrote:

Sure you can add APBT to help structure, but what will that do the temperament?

I would like it if you were to elaborate on this. Pitbull temperament?? Are you aware of the tempermant issues within our breed? You think the Pitbull would add worse temperamental traits? how so?

 

 
IMO... ABs are more forgiving when it comes to their owners and children, they are more of a family protecter... where the pit is more of a game dog. The pit has a shorter fuse and tends to get on the offensive quickly. Now I know either breed can be breed on temperament and mess with natural instinct but in general that's what I think.

No offense Gil but you know nothing about what your talking about. You obviously have had no experience with pit bulls.

 


“In order to have an enemy, one must be somebody. One must be a force before he can be resisted by another force. A malicious enemy is better than a clumsy friend.”
 

1/01/2014 3:44 pm #222


Re: 7/8 rule why not

speaking of Gr. Ch. ROM APBT ....how about this 80 lb. son of Gr. Ch. Virgil ROM...think he might add a little umph to your Bully program? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14EY0peGwME

 

1/01/2014 4:01 pm #223


Re: 7/8 rule why not

JGM-NC wrote:

speaking of Gr. Ch. ROM APBT ....how about this 80 lb. son of Gr. Ch. Virgil ROM...think he might add a little umph to your Bully program? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14EY0peGwME

 
I know ur not a fan of the fast lane dog but Gr Ch Virgil is the dog I speak of in my previous post..... He'd add alot of umph to a program!


When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.
 

1/01/2014 4:05 pm #224


Re: 7/8 rule why not

BHB wrote:

no doubt there is pit outcross in this dogs pedigree several  generations back










SCH III,'2012 AWDF SCH II NAT' CH,CD2


http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/906815.jpg



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=906815-old-glorys-awful-pain




here is his dad Dorsey dog down off Boss Hog and just some southern catch dogs with not the deepest pedigree.

ROM Dorsey's Major Pain 
ROM,SCH BH, PSA PDC, WST,CD III


http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/848835.jpg


here is a Dorsey's Hitman ...he is a tri colored dog, definately a pit/amstaff color pattern.
http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/973423.jpg


Dorsey are dogs pulled out of the woods with very shallow pedigrees, but they are bred on their ability period and look at the results of Major Pain and his off spring, they are the exemplary  embodiment of the wrintten history of the breed.

no doubt in my mind this is how the breed was perpetuated over the last few thousand years of history of working bulldog.......

Bulldog was difined by the working as catch dog or gladiator, the function of aiding men at real life work, that is what made them pure, not a look or freakish cosmetic feature


now compair the gene pool we all have been working with, Olde, English, St Bernard, these dogs could not handle any kind of work the breed was created for, they have turned into a sad joke a charactature, a novelty 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2352338843235&set=vb.1093072723&type=2&theater



so who has the pure American bulldog?

 
Was just watching video on YouTube of Awful Pain, probably one of the nicest abs around and Major Pain is a producing SOB this is one of those things I was hoping didn't get posted because those that know.... know, I'll be adding some of this to my yard soon... good post V, I'm hoping Noone listens to you on this one lol


When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.
 

1/01/2014 4:06 pm #225


Re: 7/8 rule why not

Btw Awful Pain was only 6mos old in that pic


When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.
 

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