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9/14/2010 8:53 am  #1


Pasterns

I have given a lot of thought to this subject, and would like to hear some input about pasterns.  Dogs with straight pasterns look so much better in the ring, as it improves their topline and their trotting movement.  I believe that ideally, the pasterns should have a little bend in them.  Is there an angle that is ideal, or is it just the straighter the better?  All my champs tend to be a little low in the pasterns, which I think is probably the main thing that keeps them from beating dogs like Red Ruffian.  Pretty much all Dailey dogs that I see are way up on their pasterns.  It is obviously a highly genetic trait. 

I hope nobody spins this the wrong way.  I like rock hard pasterns just as much as the next guy.  Just looking for input.

As far as speed, I don't think that high pasterns really help.  Dogs have a pad on the top of their pasterns, and I think that it is supposed to hit the ground in a full run.   Looking at Greyhound pictures, many are what I would consider low in the pasterns.

http://www.breederretriever.com/photopost/data/705/greyhound11.jpg

 

9/14/2010 10:25 am  #2


Re: Pasterns

Completely vertical pasterns is a fault, most people say wow what great pasterns.  But they actually don't know correct canine structure.

"The angle the pastern makes with the vertical should be about 20 degrees in most breeds, a greater slope indicating
weak pasterns (down in pasterns)."

"Vertical pasterns are the result of a steep shoulder blade and upper arm forcing the body above the elbow.  The too far forward position of the steep forequarters reduces the forechest and forces the the front pasterns to adopt a vertical support."  pg. 4, An Eye For A Dog by Robert W. Cole.


Check out the forequarter/thoracic limb on this link.  You will see the correct canine angulation.
http://goldrushkennels.com/movement/movement.pdf

 

9/14/2010 2:03 pm  #3


Re: Pasterns

Cold Country wrote:

Completely vertical pasterns is a fault, most people say wow what great pasterns.  But they actually don't know correct canine structure.

"The angle the pastern makes with the vertical should be about 20 degrees in most breeds, a greater slope indicating
weak pasterns (down in pasterns)."

"Vertical pasterns are the result of a steep shoulder blade and upper arm forcing the body above the elbow.  The too far forward position of the steep forequarters reduces the forechest and forces the the front pasterns to adopt a vertical support."  pg. 4, An Eye For A Dog by Robert W. Cole.


Check out the forequarter/thoracic limb on this link.  You will see the correct canine angulation.
http://goldrushkennels.com/movement/movement.pdf

That is the TRUTH and thats all there is to that! Now will the judges please take note.

 

9/14/2010 3:39 pm  #4


Re: Pasterns

Cold Country wrote:

Completely vertical pasterns is a fault, most people say wow what great pasterns.  But they actually don't know correct canine structure.

"The angle the pastern makes with the vertical should be about 20 degrees in most breeds, a greater slope indicating
weak pasterns (down in pasterns)."

"Vertical pasterns are the result of a steep shoulder blade and upper arm forcing the body above the elbow.  The too far forward position of the steep forequarters reduces the forechest and forces the the front pasterns to adopt a vertical support."  pg. 4, An Eye For A Dog by Robert W. Cole.


Check out the forequarter/thoracic limb on this link.  You will see the correct canine angulation.
http://goldrushkennels.com/movement/movement.pdf

Cool stuff Troy, thanks for the link.  this article is not breed specific obviously, but it does give some excellent info. 

I don't see anything anywhere in the standards that says completely vertical pasterns is a fault.  The ABRA, ironically, doesn't even mention pasterns.  The NKC only lists down pasterns as a fault, but doesn't give an angle.

Excerpt from the NKC standard:
"Forequarters:
The chest should be deep and moderately wide giving the appearance of power and athletic ability. The front, overall, should be straight and well balanced. The chest should not be narrow or excessively wide.
Faults: Upright or loaded shoulders; elbows turned outward or tied-in; down at the pasterns; front legs bowed; wrists knuckled over; toeing in or out."

     Thread Starter
 

9/14/2010 4:37 pm  #5


Re: Pasterns

The AB Standard is a JOKE!!  No other way to say it.  People ask why the dog is so inconsistent, do you really have to ask LOL!!  The standards were written by people with very little knowledge of canine structure.  The standards are way to vague which has left it up to judges to interpret them.  Judges that have done nothing more than apprentice to be a judge.  No requirements such as titling or producing Ch. dogs, required reading, and testing based on the required reading.  How are you supposed to train judges to become conformation gurus when there is such a bad representation of a "standard".  I think it is time for people to demand that a complete, thorough standard is written.  It is the only way to improve the breed and have forward progress.

 

9/14/2010 5:35 pm  #6


Re: Pasterns

So how can we change this? Can we get together, create a NEW registry with NEW standards? If so... how do we write new standards? Who chooses what is right and what is not? With so many different tastes within the breed... how can we get and fundamental set of standards?


Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence.
- Robert Frost
 

9/15/2010 12:20 pm  #7


Re: Pasterns

JerryB wrote:

So how can we change this? Can we get together, create a NEW registry with NEW standards? If so... how do we write new standards? Who chooses what is right and what is not? With so many different tastes within the breed... how can we get and fundamental set of standards?

Those are the hurdles that are hard to over come...


Uncle Ish

"Your humble servant"
 

9/15/2010 1:31 pm  #8


Re: Pasterns

Here is a drawing of an American Bulldog (not my drawing),  now what flaws do you find here if any. I think he looks good, Why cant people go by simple pics like this as far as a general apperance goes. Hes got nice straight aiming feet, good top line, rear etc. What faults do you find in this picture,   poppabill.


http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb24/poppabill_2007/Patches%20123/A1800x600.jpg


wporter1@rochester.rr.com. 1-585-319-3165
http://pedigrees-plus.webs.com
(REMEMBER TO LOVE UM & HUG UM WHILE YOU CAN, AS LIFE IS OVER IN A HEART BEAT)
 

9/15/2010 2:12 pm  #9


Re: Pasterns

I have begun the process for my own benefit, as well as others.  To show people who are interested in our dogs what our goal/vision at Cold Country Bulldogs.  It is far from done, needs editing, and is in its infancy stages.  I will be including a section illustrating every fault I can think of within the breed.  From wry face, to low pasterns, to hare feet, to cow hocked, to straight stifled etc.

http://www.coldcountrybulldogs.com/Standards.html

 

9/15/2010 2:28 pm  #10


Re: Pasterns

Cold Country wrote:

I have begun the process for my own benefit, as well as others.  To show people who are interested in our dogs what our goal/vision at Cold Country Bulldogs.  It is far from done, needs editing, and is in its infancy stages.  I will be including a section illustrating every fault I can think of within the breed.  From wry face, to low pasterns, to hare feet, to cow hocked, to straight stifled etc.

http://www.coldcountrybulldogs.com/Standards.html

I really like the graphics you used for you standards page.

 

9/15/2010 3:09 pm  #11


Re: Pasterns

I don't think the NKC started off knowing what the best angles of pasterns or any angle in the skeletal structure or, why that angle was the best.  There are however, many respected publications that have been around for years. These angles have been researched and worked out so as to provide the best leverage, strength, ease of movement with the least resriction. That sounds like what a working bulldog would need.

 

9/15/2010 3:40 pm  #12


Re: Pasterns

Cold Country wrote:

I have begun the process for my own benefit, as well as others.  To show people who are interested in our dogs what our goal/vision at Cold Country Bulldogs.  It is far from done, needs editing, and is in its infancy stages.  I will be including a section illustrating every fault I can think of within the breed.  From wry face, to low pasterns, to hare feet, to cow hocked, to straight stifled etc.

http://www.coldcountrybulldogs.com/Standards.html

CC you/your web guy did a killer job with that diagram... I actually refer to it for my own use all the time...


Uncle Ish

"Your humble servant"
 

9/15/2010 3:54 pm  #13


Re: Pasterns

Here is a great site full of info on the working dog. All of the angles have been worked out and proven for years. There is more info here than most will want to know. I would think that every judge should know all of this information. there is a great discussion on working dog leverage there.

             www.apbtconformation.com

 

9/15/2010 3:58 pm  #14


Re: Pasterns

I can't take credit for the illustrations.  All I did was provide photos of what my ideal was, and Chuck Mackey did the rest.  From there we tweaked certain elements to get what you see.  We will continue on with a very comprehensive and educational site for the breed.

 

9/16/2010 10:19 am  #15


Re: Pasterns

BUMP


wporter1@rochester.rr.com. 1-585-319-3165
http://pedigrees-plus.webs.com
(REMEMBER TO LOVE UM & HUG UM WHILE YOU CAN, AS LIFE IS OVER IN A HEART BEAT)
 

9/16/2010 10:24 am  #16


Re: Pasterns

poppabill wrote:

Here is a drawing of an American Bulldog (not my drawing),  now what flaws do you find here if any. I think he looks good, Why cant people go by simple pics like this as far as a general apperance goes. Hes got nice straight aiming feet, good top line, rear etc. What faults do you find in this picture,   poppabill.


http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb24/poppabill_2007/Patches%20123/A1800x600.jpg

Actually that dog appears to be a bit straight stifled, and the pasterns have like a 5-10 degree angle.  Muzzle is a little long, and not quite enough undershot.   Coat appears too long. 

JM2C

     Thread Starter
 

9/16/2010 11:03 am  #17


Re: Pasterns

JerryB wrote:

So how can we change this? Can we get together, create a NEW registry with NEW standards? If so... how do we write new standards? Who chooses what is right and what is not? With so many different tastes within the breed... how can we get and fundamental set of standards?

There is no need for a NEW registry to accomplish this.  I think that the leading registries could easily incorporate a more comprehensive standard based upon canine structure for the most part and not individual tastes.  Of course when it comes to height/weight and things like that, they could easily just use an average of dogs that register at shows to come up with realistic numbers.

 

9/16/2010 10:51 pm  #18


Re: Pasterns

Pasterns,
Years ago I had a Champion APBT from very good stock. One of her faults (as every dog has) were weak pasterns. At a show in the Champion of Champion division she didnt place for this very reason. The Judges name was Anna Burke Harris, a very reputable breeder of bull terriers. She informed me that weak pasterns were a result of lack of exercise just as much as heredity. Her advice was to work the dog uphill with a ball, playing fetch. I took her advice and soon after she began to look better. Not only her pasterns looked better, her shoulders and topline improved greatly.
Having multiple dogs from the best stock around dosent mean anything if you neglect the basic needs of a healthy dog. (working them)

 

9/18/2010 7:20 am  #19


Re: Pasterns

WTF.....nice thread, interesting, engaging, and full od substain..........Troy great post explaining propper pasterns...everyone has brought good info to the table...................I have a lot of experience on this because I have been paying attention to Passterns in my program because my on of my foundation bitches has weak passtern. I'll post more indepth later....but I just wanted  to say how proud I am that this board is having these types of disscussions


CHANGING THE GAME...DAMN IT!!!!
 

1/10/2013 8:24 pm  #20


Re: Pasterns

Worth another look


mike_perry23@yahoo.com (202) 489-8749
 

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